Sunday, 30 October 2011

Disturbing Investigations of Christian Groups

WARNING: This blog was started to help those who have been confused by teachings on the site,

Unfortunately the site only allows you to quote proofs from other references on the web after you have 250 posts on their site!!! 250!!! That eliminates anyone but the person who spends hours on that site!! So I started this blog to list references which any normal person would not be able to post on their site. 

Strange that a group that claims to be seeking God are spending so much time explaining what they have decided is wrong with other groups of Christians! Doesn't a person who is seeking God spend much time in prayer and then read the Bible to discover God?

[Could they be straining out gnats?]

To me this is dangerous. Jesus said "King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)

And Jesus said unto him,

Forbid him not:

for he that is not against us is for us.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Wherefore I give you to understand, that
no man speaking by the Spirit of God
calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man
can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by

theHoly Ghost.
Okay if these verses are true, then is it for us to judge differently?

If someone sincerely says that Jesus is Lord of all, providing he is not just a deliberate liar, then it is the Holy Ghost in him saying that. And do NON-CHRISTIANS have the Holy Ghost? Of course not.

In my estimation too much time can be taken away from the real mission of the Christian church by these kinds of exercises. And what if we make a mistake in judging some other group as false, or cults or something else ignorantly on slim evidence and then find out we were wrong?

Gamaliel, I assume Paul's former teacher, had a very interesting comment to say about some of the apostles:

Act 5:34-39  Then there stood up one in the sanhedrin, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a doctor of the Law honored among all the people. And he commanded the apostles to be put outside a little space.  (35)  And he said to them, Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men.  (36)  For before these days Theudas rose up, boasting himself to be somebody; a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves to him; who was slain. And all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered and brought to nothing.  (37)  After this one, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the Registration, and drew away considerable people after him. Yet that one perished; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered.  (38)  And now I say to you, Withdraw from these men and let them alone. For if this counsel or this work is of men, it will come to nothing.  (39)  But if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.

The more I look at the site, the more I see judgement of who is a Christian and who is not.

Vicky who is the owner of the site, writes off many groups and seems to indicate in doing so that Jesus either saves whole groups or no one in the group. Strange because it seems to me that the Bible says that each man [woman, child] is accountable and responsible for himself/herself ONLY.

1Jn 2:9-11  He who says he is in the light and hates his brother is in darkness until now.  (10)  He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no offense in him.  (11)  But he who hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because darkness has blinded his eyes.
1Jn 3:10-11  In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the Devil: everyone not practicing righteousness is not of God, also he who does not love his brother.  (11)  For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;
1Jn 3:14-16  We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death.  (15)  Everyone hating his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer has everlasting life abiding in him.  (16)  By this we have known the love of God, because He laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

1Jn 3:18  My children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 
1Jn 3:23-24  And this is His commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.  (24)  And he who keeps His commandment dwells in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit which He gave to us.

The excuse I hear from most people who practise finding faults of others is that they are not judging just discerning truth. 

Or that they are not my brothers because they are not true Christians.

Jesus told a parable about that:
Mat 13:24-30  He put out another parable to them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.  (25)  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel among the wheat and went his way.  (26)  But when the blade had sprung up and had produced fruit, then the darnel also appeared.  (27)  So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? Then where have the darnel come from?  (28)  He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Then do you want us to go and gather them up?  (29)  But he said, No, lest while you gather up the darnel you also root up the wheat with them.  (30)  Let both grow together until the harvest. And in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, First gather together the darnel and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my granary.
 What was Jesus saying? Was he saying go out and find out what is wrong with groups that call themselves Christian but really are not? 

When did Jesus say that the "darnel" should be separated from the wheat? Was it NOW? 

Who will command that the darnel be burned? Will it be us? Or will it be Jesus? 

Are you burning people or groups that you THINK are not Christian. Are you labelling them false Christians and in your words and mind separating them from the rest of the body of Christ NOW? What did Jesus say about those who did not keep his words?

Another principle applies here. 
If you think your brother is wrong you are to go to him and tell him his fault. If he does not listen you bring back a few others and tell him again. If he is still in obvious fault, THEN you tell the church.
[verse coming]

Another principle:
Mat 7:3  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye? 
To give the whole passage:

Mat 7:1-5  Judge not, that you may not be judged.  (2)  For with whatever judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with whatever measure you measure out, it shall be measured to you again.  (3)  And why do you look on the splinter that is in your brother's eye, but do not consider the beam that is in your own eye?  (4)  Or how will you say to your brother, Let me pull the splinter out of your eye; and, behold, a beam is in your own eye?  (5)  Hypocrite! First cast the beam out of your own eye, and then you shall see clearly to cast the splinter out of your brother's eye.
Now if one considers him- or herself to be perfect or perfected, that would be a great time to go and tell others about their splinters. 

If not, perhaps one should get rid of one's own beams first that prevent one from seeing clearly.

PromiseKeepers, Pentecostals, Charismatics, Messianic and Hebrew Roots groups are all written off as groups.  

So of course the largest church in the world in Seoul Korea, lead by Paul Yonghi Cho is written off to because it is full gospel. [I make the assumption because Full Gospel is a pentecostal-charismatic church.]

When one judges whole groups by picking at details here and there, then that group in my understanding has become like modern-day Pharisees.

The Pharisees in Jesus time were fond of teaching details but Jesus told them

Mat 23:23-24  Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithes of mint and dill and cummin, and you have left undone the weightier matters of the Law, judgment, mercy, and faith. You ought to have done these and not to leave the other undone.  (24)  Blind guides who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

Mat 5:43-46  You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy."  (44)  But I say to you, Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you,  (45)  so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. For He makes His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.  (46)  For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same?

The scriptures have many things to say about judging whole groups and writing them off as not Christian.

Joh 14:1-2  Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in Me.  (2)  In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Luk 14:11  For whoever exalts himself shall be abased, and he who humbles himself shall be exalted. 

Mat 22:36-40  Master, which is the great commandment in the Law?  (37)  Jesus said to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.  (38)  This is the first and great commandment.  (39)  And the second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.  (40)  On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
"Mat 12:31-37  Therefore I say to you, All kinds of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.  (32)  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come.  (33)  Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or else make the tree corrupt and its fruit corrupt; for the tree is known by its fruit.  (34)  Offspring of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.  (35)  A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings out good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings out evil things.  (36)  But I say to you that every idle word, whatever men may speak, they shall give account of it in the day of judgement.  (37)  For by your words you shall be justified, and by your words you shall be condemned."
Mat 12:50  For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother. 
Mat 12:22-28  Then one who had been demon-possessed was brought to Him, blind and dumb. And He healed him, so much so that the blind and dumb one both spoke and saw.  (23)  And all the people were amazed and said, Is not this the son of David?  (24)  But when the Pharisees heard, they said, This one does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub the ruler of the demons.  (25)  And Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. And every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.  (26)  And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?  (27)  But if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.  (28)  But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come to you.
Mat 12:50  For whoever shall do the will of My Father in Heaven, the same is My brother and sister and mother. 
 Mat 15:8-11  "This people draws near to Me with their mouth, and honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.  (9)  But in vain they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."  (10)  And He called the crowd and said to them, Hear and understand.  (11)  Not that which goes into the mouth defiles a man; but that which comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
Mat 21:43-45  Therefore I say to you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing out its fruits.  (44)  And he who falls on this Stone shall be broken, but on whomever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.  (45)  And when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they knew that He spoke of them.

Mat 12:7  But if you had known what this is, "I desire mercy and not sacrifice," you would not have condemned those who are not guilty. 
Mat 15:13-14  But He answered and said, Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.  (14)  Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

I also found that at least the two that I spoke with have never agreed that anything I said was right. And yet what I said is representative of very large groups of Christians. 

1Ti 1:3-7  Even as I begged you to remain at Ephesus, when I was going to Macedonia, that you might charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor to give heed to fables and endless genealogies (which provide doubts rather than the nurture of God in faith). But the end of the commandment is love out of a pure heart, and a good conscience, and faith unfeigned, from which some, having swerved, have turned aside to foolish talking, desiring to be teachers of the law, neither understanding what they say nor that which they affirm. 

In order to remain objective I guess I am doing the same thing, am I not? I am just taking a lot less time to do it.

I am totally open in the Comments section to any opinions from site members or others as long as they are courteous and concise about what I am saying.

The problem I see with most people who are finding Christian groups and discovering what is wrong with them is that they are too eager!

I ask Vicky and anyone else who is considered the elite of 

"How much time have you spent praying for them that you find fault with?

If you are so concerned with truth should you not pray for those who are obviously interested in following Jesus but according to you are on the wrong track?

Surely you are more eager for people to be in the kingdom than to find their faults are you not?"

Warnings Re Forum

At first I thought this forum at was really a nice place to come and discuss Christian views and ideas.

Progressively I found that there is a bias which I am sure the authors on the board do not realize at all. I believe they are sincere Christians but unaware of their own biases.

Vicky runs the board. She has not been bad in her responses at least to me. 

However there is a former messianic who was indoctrinated in the "go-back-to-torah-after-becoming-a-Christian" group. She was deceived. She found her way out. She is nicknamed Rose of Shushan.

However I do notice a distinct bias against Jews and Israel. She has deceived herself into believing that the Jews in Israel and the state of Israel are as much to blame for the problems in the middle east as the Palestinian terrorists.

Every time I mention any reasons why there is a problem in the middle east or attempt to inform her about Palestinian problems she turns it around as if the Jews and Israel are to blame. And she does call herself a Christian. Any time anyone comes on the board and mentions things which I know to be true she casts doubt on it.


Comments She Made:
Computerdoc it is really sad to see you ,who profess to be a believer in Christ, endorsing all this hate propaganda promoted by right wing islamophobes.

The "hate propoganda" I expressed was telling her about:
  1. ObsessionTheMovie as it is agreed by people that know as accurate.
  2. That Palestinians are taught from a VERY YOUNG age to hate Jews and Israel.
  3. That Hamas, Fatah, and the PLO are/were terrorist organizations which foster hatred against Israel.
Let's take one at a time.

I pointed out to Rose that truth is not hateful. Jesus called the pharisees "whitewashed tombstones" and "sons of the devil". Does that sound hateful? Of course. But he was speaking truth.

2. Rose uses ad hominem attacks by using words like "hate propaganda", "profess to be a believer", "right-wing Islamophobes".
All of these words are attacking, judging words but when I pointed out that to her she just ignored my comments which was typical of any points that she chose not to answer. They do not give evidence of "hate" anywhere, just truth.

3. She makes comments like this about Palestinians acting as though Israelis are as bad as Palestinians.

Rose: Palestinians are not a terrorist organization that claim to be rightful owners of the land. Isn't that extremely harsh, especially coming from a Christian?

She has no idea that Palestinian children are taught to hate Israelis at the earliest ages on TV, children's shows, and textbooks.

Palestinians elected Hamas, to be their government. Hamas is a recognized terrorist group.

Palestinian textbooks with hate:

This link explains how Israel teaches good things about Arabs and encourages peace while Palestinian books teach hate:

"What do the Palestinian schools teach? Ninth-graders study from official textbooks that assert, "treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them." Jews are cast as Satanic, violent and cunning, as "thieving conquerors" who have stolen Arab land and must be fought and defeated."

"Jihad and martyrdom are glorified as the means to liberating "Palestine" and children's poems contain calls to war and bloodletting. Fifth graders memorize such lines as, "I shall take my soul in my hand and hurl it into the abyss of death." The same verses are recited by children on official Palestinian television. Sixth-graders read of a young boy growing up with "the love of Jihad flowing through his veins and filling every fiber of his being." "Joy" comes only at "the sight of the enemy lying dead" or "fleeing for their lives."

"Palestine" replaces Israel on all maps in PA textbooks, and Israeli towns and cities are designated Palestinian locales. Jews are cast as enemies of Islam and European colonizers. An eighth-grade literary text denies Jewish connection to the Western Wall and children are taught to identify Muslim and Christian holy sites, while Jewish ones are omitted."
"Bogus history teaches that Arabs lived in "Palestine" before the Jews. Thus, students learn Palestinian Arabs are descendants of Canaanites and Jerusalem is an ancient Arab city built before Islam. Jews are cast as an illegitimate, foreign, evil presence in the land of Palestine."

Here is a brief intro to the Hamas Charter 1988.
"The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

“In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

Quote from Wikipedia regarding Hamas:

Brief quote: " Hamas Charter affirmed in 1988 that Hamas was founded to liberate Palestine from Israeli occupation and to establish an Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[18][1"

"The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, the Hamas affiliated military wing, has launched attacks with both military and civilian victims. Tactics have included rocket attacks and, from 1993 to 2008,suicide bombings.[26][27] Military targets included Israeli and Egyptian outposts and border crossings and rival Palestinian militias in the occupied territories.[28]"

There is so much more that could be said about how Rose of Shushan interprets or looks for information which is unfavorable to Israelis and favorable to Palestinians. She makes comments about being balanced when she is far from balanced.

How do you balance a neighbor who sponsors terrorism, teaches hate, and wants to eliminate you with a peaceful democracy which respects the beliefs of others, allows freedom to all their holy sites, and teaches peace and respect in their schools [Israel]?

It is sad that Rose of Shushan is blinded perhaps by her former messed up messianic roots teachings that she displays a prejudice against Jews. Even Martin Luther in spite of his realizing what was wrong with the catholic church of his day, developed as strong prejudice against Jews about which Hitler claimed he was finishing the work of Luther. Constantine was also anti-Jewish. All of these individuals have good attributes, no one is perfect, but surely bias against a race or country is recognized as wrong by at least the Western world. 

But I will keep praying for her. Even thorns need prayer.

She also cast doubt on whether arabs danced in the streets when they heard of the 9/11 destruction.